is the sam smith style spreading through yorkshire?

[yorkie]

The 1989 MMC decision only affected the national breweries, I think it was those with over 2000 pubs. As for missing a few, maybe, but I don't think Bigjim has missed over 100, he seems too thorough for that.

Despite that, there are many similarities between Sams & Oakwell & what better way of keeping your wealth hidden than having 2 separate operations?

[OnTheDrink]

Just a thought from reading this interesting debate, and I know it is all speculation but one reason that SS could be hiding its involvement in Oakwell is the monopolies commissions (or some such body) rulings of the early 80's which prevented brewerys from owning more than a certain amount of pubs. This is what led to the initial sell off of pubs to the dreaded pubcos from the larger brewerys.
Bigjim estimates around 270 known pubs, does this include all the working mens clubs too? Either way, we must have missed a good few so perhaps SS is dangerously close to going over the limit which I think was set at around 400 or 500...I cant remember what the figure was, perhaps someone could enlighten us about the original legislation. It could be a good reason to keep their ownership secret, and a good reason not to advertise it by selling SS products.
Once again, I know this is nothing but speculation, but the treatment of staff and brewery policies that seem to be designed to drive custom away by the Oakwell invisible owners are very very similar to those of SS.

The Beer Orders of 1989 prevented brewers owning more than 2000 pubs so I don't think hump & co are in any danger of passing that! 

[Coriolanus]

Lol, sorry got that hopelessly wrong. for some reason I always thought it was nearer the 500 mark.

[neveragain]

Hi BigJim

You are on the right road on ownership of RBNB and RBNBC



Neveragain

[pegandtap]

pegandtap

Thanks for starting the thread in the first place - it's been a real eye-opener and stimulated us when we were flagging a bit! Do keep us posted as it is very relevant - and sorry yes the Brewery is in Yorkshire of course - just no pubs.

Cheers
All oakwell pubs to close at 11pm. new policy to appoint management couples on a fraction more salary than single manager - twice the work for a little more money! ridiculous goals set for managers to reach. still attacking profitable pubs for the sake of failing ones - madness

[bigjim]

I've been doing a bit more digging on the internet in relation to Oakwell Brewery RBNB and have found another example of how keen these two male shareholders are to keep their identity secret. In 1997 Barnsley Council were proposing a Compulsory Purchase Order for the Oakwell area and as a result, RBNB, RBNBC and associated company FSK Nominees Limited, objected. The matter arrived eventually in the House of Lords as a petition, but the Joint Committee demanded to know the identity of the secret shareholders. Rather than comply, the petition was withdrawn. This must have annoyed the shareholders greatly!

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/vo970311/text/70311w02.htm

The similarites between the running of this company and SSOB are quite striking - right down to the type of pub they own like the listed Punchbowl Hotel at 1 The Butts Warwick CV34 4SS. Here, in 2007, the owners got into an argument with the council who threatened enforcement action for unauthorised signage. Streetview shows the signage still present - so I wonder who won?

[neveragain]

Well bigjim i can tell you the winner was RBNB it cost the council if few ?

[bigjim]

Here's another interesting Oakwell owned pub - the Racecourse Hotel 7 Littleton Road, Salford, M6 6ED.

In 2005 it won a CAMRA award in the best refurbished category and the judges said:-

"A massive Brewer's Tudor edifice of 1928, formerly a hotel, its powerful exterior has been nicely restored. Inside is even more impressive. The central bar has been 'demodernised' - shaved of its more recent, unsympathetic additions, restored to its original island site, and returned to its 1928 form. Three cheers for Oakwell Brewery and their architects......., for rescuing and revitalising a semi-derelict landmark."

Now I know I've said this before, but this has an uncanny feel about it - all that attention to detail; returning the building to the original form; no expense spared etc etc - 'I put it to you, members of the jury'...............lol

http://www.prestoungrange.org/core-files/archive/camra_europe_travel.pdf

[bubble]

Check this out, Oakwell Brewery closed in 1976 but continues to be used as area office by John Smiths of Tadcaster, do you think there could be something in this?

books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0719030323...

[bigjim]

Check this out, Oakwell Brewery closed in 1976 but continues to be used as area office by John Smiths of Tadcaster, do you think there could be something in this?

books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0719030323...

Yes that info is contained in 'The Brewing industry - A guide to Historical Records' published 1990. However the site was subsequently sold by Courage Group to RBNB in 1994. The same year 38* pubs were acquired from Greenalls and they began trading as Oakwell Brewery. I don't think there is any current connection with John Smiths (Tadcaster).

(Corrected thanks to info from neveragain)

see :- http://www.shakespeareshead.co.uk/rbnb.html

* This figure is contained in the House of Lords judgement of 2002 and contradicts figures quoted elsewhwere - of course this is a common policy of SSOB in constantly underquoting the number of pubs they operate.

See judgement:-

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200102/ldjudgmt/jd020620/wngton-1.htm

[neveragain]

Brewery bought from Courage pubs bought from Greenalls both in 1994.

[bigjim]

Brewery bought from Courage pubs bought from Greenalls both in 1994.

Thanks for that.