How can I get a copy of my p45?

[funky_pineapple]

I am hoping that someone can help me...I was previously employed at a Sam Smith pub and left nearly a year ago. I never received my copy of my p45 despite the my manager swearing he mailed it to me in Australia. All I have is a scanned copy of it which is not good enough to claim my tax refund with. The pub has had new managers for months now, so calling them is probably useless. Does anyone know how I could go about getting a copy of my p45? I am owed 300 pounds and I want it! 

[Max]

Does anyone know how I could go about getting a copy of my p45? I am owed 300 pounds and I want it! 

Unfortunately, a 'copy' from Sam's would not be possible. However, they are required by law to provide you with one (the original), and you could argue that you require proof that the said P45 was posted to you - otherwise they could be reported to the Inland revenue for breaking the law.

However, here's one solution..

     Get one here for ?30

..that will leave you with ?270, which is better than a poke in the eye with a stick! 

[funky_pineapple]

Will that actually work?

[Max]

Will that actually work?

I can't for any reason see why not. You have a copy of the original, which means you can make sure that all of the info is the same on the 'new' one. And because Sam's claimed to have sent it to you - as long as all of the info is the same as the original - who's going to know that it isn't the original.

It's not like you are trying to make any unlawful gains by deceit - as long as you make sure the info on it is as the original

[funky_pineapple]

I am gonna be stingy and use that as my last resort. I've emailed HMRC and I heard somewhere that if I send my p85 and a letter explaining why I have no p45, that they may be able to use their copy of it to work out the tax claim. I'll wait to hear from them first but thanks for the suggestion.

[yorkie]

As an accountant I can advise that the ?30 P45 is being produced illegally and to use this would be illegal also. However there should be no problem using the scanned copy, Sams have to provide the Tax Office with a copy when they issue a P45 to the employee, so the Tax Office only have to check their records to verify the scanned figures are correct. Alternatively your final payslip should show the same details as the P45.

Hope this helps.

[Max]

As an accountant I can advise that the ?30 P45 is being produced illegally and to use this would be illegal also.

Untrue. If printing such documents were illegal - these people would already have been prosecuted. The P45 is not uniquely numbered - therefore 'legally' it constitutes as a 'copy' (and can not be passed off as an original) so long as all of the detail of the document itself, and all the data contained is exactly as the original.

Using such a document with false data, with the intention to defraud, or obtain money, goods, and/or services - is most certainly ilegal.

If you was to purchase one - with all of the precise data, as per the original - you would be technically committing a crime if for example, you was challenged with the question, 'is that the original one supplied from your previous employer', and you answered 'yes', as opposed to replying, 'no, it's a copy'.

However, if you are able to resolve the situation as suggested by hollybush, then all well and good, plus you will be saving some expenditure.

[yorkie]

Sorry admin but after 38 years working in tax, with the Inland Revenue (as it was then) and more recently as a tax manager for an international firm of Chartered Accountants, I do know what I am talking about.

Only the actual employer is allowed to issue a P45 and allowing a third party to issue copies or duplicates would be an open invitation to fraud. If the people offering this service have not yet been prosecuted, its only a matter of time.

In this case i would expect the Tax Office to be sensible & check their records to make the refund due.

[Max]

I think you may be misunderstanding my point - and I have no doubt that you are a highly experienced accountant - but I am talking about a legal technicality, to the letter of the law.

Without rambling on in legal jargon, and in a nutshell, it equates to this..

1. It is not illegal, for an individual to make an accurate copy of their own P45 (by whatever means)

2. It is not illegal for a person at a photocopy service, to charge you for making a photo copy of your own P45 for yourself

3. If you get someone else, to make an accurate copy of your own P45, for yourself - then again, the law is not technically being broken.

4. The law is however broken, if such an item is used for wrongful / deceit purposes (which is unlikely if the copy is true in content to the original. Legally, the term copy in general for, includes manual copy methods as well as electronic. For example, an electronic copy of an original blank document, with the manually applied data 'accurately copied' to the document - this technically counts as a 'copy'.

5. The companies/individuals providing such a service, are technically NOT issuing a P45, but providing a copy service. They have a disclaimer relating to the information being provided is accurate - and that the said documents will not be used illegally, etc.., etc.

6. This is why many still continue to trade providing such services (also camouflage ID's and Passports) even after 10 years - although there is proposed legislation in the pipeline to tighten up on the law in these area's - manly prompted by false ID's created for illegal immigrants.

Anyway Hollybush, as this is your field, wouldn't another option be to complete a P46?

[yorkie]

I agree entirely that copying any form is not illegal, but Funky Pineapple does not have a P45 to copy. The service being offered is therefore 'creating' a P45 which is very different and an open invitation to identity fraud, false tax claims, overstating income for motgages or job applications etc.etc.etc. As for them trading for 10 years, it may be the tax authorities are not aware of them (yet).

Sorry Funky Pineapple that your serious question has taken such a technical turn but I hope the comments by both Admin and myself have helped. 

[funky_pineapple]

I emailed HRMC they said it's all fine, so I am sending off my claim along with an letter explaining my situation, my scanned p45 and the email they sent me. So fingers crossed....

Thanks guys for all your help

[Max]

Thank you for giving us an update. Please let us know how you get on. 

[yorkie]

Good luck, with a bit of common sense at the Tax Office, you should be ok.

[P45s.com]

Admin, thanks for the detailed coherent reply to allegations that the service we provide is illegal.

We provide a legal bona fide service for people such as funky_pineapple who genuinely need a replacement P45 for their purposes.
As many ex-employees know to their chagrin, once an employee has already been issued with a P45 (received or not) and has left the company, the company has no obligation to issue them with another one.
Also, we provide a service for employers who have outsourced their payroll who happen to want a computer generated P45 - many are still on manual payroll. Is this service illegal, too? (No)

Our P45 is produced on genuine, official HMRC stationery.
Clients simply provide us with the details. Funky_pineapple would simply supply us with the info from his scanned copy or even email us the scan.
Required details are as per the order form (http://www.P45s.com/order.htm)

We do not want or need to know for what purpose people require a P45.
Needless to say, we are not responsible for what people do with the P45 once they have them.

Hollybush, "Admin" has correctly covered most of the points of law relating to "novelty documents".
I suggest you do not state uninformed, incorrect opinions as fact when they are not.
You should stay within your remit or do some research and read up on tried and decided caselaw relating to "novelty documents".
These would have more weight and credibility than your opinion, hearsay or what someone heard from a 3rd party...

Also, I think people give too much credit on the different departments of HMRC working seamlessly and efficiently as one unit (you should know this having worked 38 yrs for the Inland revenue!), with enough manpower to carry out various checks for the public.
In fact, many records are now kept centrally so the local tax office would not be able to access them anyhow.
Plus the mandate of the tax office is to assess and collect taxes - not dig up bits of info for the general public (who are not clients). If they did this for 1 person they would be opening the door to 30m+ of the working poulation! Plus, what's in it for them...?

If they could issue tax refunds on the basis of checking their HMRC records, they would not be requesting sight of a P45 in the first place. Plus there is also the issue of Data Protection Act regarding providing info without permission.


Regards

[funky_pineapple]

I finally got all my tax money back and then 3 days later my original p45 and final payslip arrived.